No Life 'Til Lager
A Bourdain inspired beer show focusing on local lager and the world's best selling beverage. Hosted by failed Master Cicerone® Adam Zuniga.
No Life 'Til Lager
No Life 'Til Lager Episode 23 - Jack Van Paepeghem x von Trapp
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No Life 'Til Lager Episode Twenty Three with Jack Van Paepeghem, quality manager at von Trapp Brewing.
Hosted by failed Master Cicerone® Adam Zuniga. Produced by Jeremy Batchelor.
No Life 'Til Lager theme song by The Bad Actors. Episode art by Audrey Provost.
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The Helles is alive - https://www.vontrappbrewing.com
Copyright 2026 No Life 'Til Lager
No Life to Logger! No Life to Logger.
Welcome Jack Van (not von)!
SPEAKER_01Welcome to No Life to Lager, a show about lager beer, the brewers who make it, and we that drink it. This is a conversation between two people over one or two pints. My name is Adam Zuniga. I'm a failed master Cicero. I'm part of the creative team behind the Six Most Metal Breweries and Beer Like in Das Movie. And today my guest is Jack Von Papigem. He is the quality manager at Von Trapp Brewing. That is a little bit of Austria and a whole lot of Vermont based in Stowe. Cheers and thank you and welcome, Jack. Grateful to you for joining No Life to Lager.
SPEAKER_00Hey Adam, thanks so much for having me. This is a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01I have wanted Von Trapp on this show ever since it began for two reasons. So I took a brewery tour with Sam Von Trapp, none other, back in 2016, 2017. We talked so much shit about IPA on this show for no less than an hour plus. And I will admit though, I was that guy. I was on a tour, I was on like hunting for Hedy Topper throughout Vermont. And what struck me so much about Von Trapp was how completely different it was from everywhere else we were visiting, from everywhere else we were drinking. So I can't wait to revisit that with you again here. The other thing is we know each other from a past event. We took the Master Cicerone exam together. So we are uniquely qualified to speak about that experience. Are you ready, my friend?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
The light lager at hand
SPEAKER_00Let's do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So before we get going, um, tell me a little bit about the beer in our hand. I think we're both drinking Von Trapp Light Lager. Um, I believe it's a rice-based lager. It clocks in at 4%. Um, I learned from our episode with Fathers that you have to label the calorie count on a can if you call it light. This is only 100 calories. So a small beer with big character. Um, tell us about what we're drinking, please.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, that was a great introduction. Uh, so this kind of came about early last year. We were looking to build out our 2026 brand calendar, and this was kind of the beer we wanted to put front and center, make a splash with within our lineup. Um, clearly, we make a lot of pale loggers. We think we do pretty well at it, but we wanted to do something uh that was different enough, but that would entertain craft drinkers, but also bring in, you know, maybe Bud Light, McLobe, that kind of macro drinker, but without sacrificing flavor. Uh so the kind of task set upon the brew team was make a beer, make it 4% 100 calories, do what you want with it. And so uh I took a lot of creative liberties with that. So, you know, I want a beer, I want to drink, I want a beer I can drink more than one of. So yeah, when we were kind of going over our ideas, it's like, do you do sweet corn lager? Do you do, you know, some kind of German-like beer? Uh, you know, there's so many different options for a kind of light lager. Do you go kind of like British session beer, you know? But we think that this is more in our wheelhouse. So yeah, I got to visit Japan last year. And so this is directly inspired from drinking a ton of a sahi dry on draft. And uh yeah, it's just like when you get it fresh on draft, cold, served, served perfectly. It's like one of the best, most refreshing drinking experiences in the world. And yeah, I took that back here and I was like, okay, how do we get our beer drier? How do we add rice? How do we lighten the body, lighten the color, just make it super drinkable? Because like our flagship is a Hellas Lager, and for most people, that's a light lager. Sure. Uh, to me, it's got mall character, it's got a little sweetness, you know, it's got some hop aroma, but even on that like super that one hot day in Vermont, you know, it feels a little heavy. So we wanted something lighter, tighter, crisper. Uh, so yeah, we started going down this kind of rabbit hole of like, how do we get there? What flavor profile are we going for? Uh so yeah, we put in rice in the mix, 20%, uh flaked rice in the mash. We have been toying with the idea of turning our decoction vessel into a rice cooker. Uh, still working on that, but you know, we we really like the rice character in there. Uh, we decoct this beer. We think that adds just like a little further depth to the rice flavor, uh, in addition to the good pilsner malt. Um, also just gives that like perceived, you know, a little more of everything in such a light beer, just to give it some further flavor. Uh, and then yeah, we hammer this with tetaning in the whirlpool. So we also love Bavarian-style pills beers. So uh we didn't make Bavarian pills. That's kind of one of our, you know, Hallmark Pills lagers. So this was kind of a replacement just for us selfishly. Uh yeah, we have this just like totally weird Japanese, German, American-inspired hundred-calorie lager. And uh, we love it. It's like tight and bitter and floral and crisp, and Jasmine gives it that like little rice character. The color's awesome, it's pale. Uh yeah, it's like if you're looking for a Bud Light, you're not gonna get it here, but you're gonna find something that you do want to drink and drink a lot of. And yeah, this has been super fun to drink after just like hiking, kayaking, just hanging out. And yeah, we're we're we're fans of it.
SPEAKER_01Well said, much enjoyed. It is a flawless beer. It is a perfect beer, and it's a very, very exotic beer. I love the mix between uh just inspired by Japanese rice lager, of course, true to your roots, using noble hops. The decoction element is really interesting, and uh, we're gonna finish this episode talking about decoction like we do most. But I mean, I the just I have to ask off the top of my head, do you think a beer this light clocking it at 4% really needed really benefits from decoction mashing?
SPEAKER_00That is up for debate. You know, we haven't made this beer without decoction, so we have nothing to compare it to. And uh it's kind of like ironic because we use a alpha amylase enzyme, so that actually drives the fermentation and attenuation way down, whereas decoction tends to enhance body uh because you're denating enzymes, you're keeping fermentable sugars around. Yeah. So we're trying to kind of play both sides of that coin, you know, get character, but without sweetness and body. Um, so I'm gonna say, yeah, it definitely matters, but until we brew a version without, it's kind of hard to say.
SPEAKER_01Not incredible. I love it that it's for the German locker lager drinker, uh, for the for the Japanese rice lager drinker, and here in the States, you know, for the American light lager, for the for the bud, for the coors, for what have you, like something to scratch that itch for all the above. And one more note on this, I just rice, I think we're often taught um that whether it's rice, whether it's corn, like adjuncts in beer are really for the sake of an alternative but fermentable sugar that ferment out completely, so don't yield noticeable character to the final product. I don't agree with that at all. I think it's obvious when a beer is brewed from rice, honest obvious when a beer is brewed with corn, uh, in the same way that it's obvious when a beer is brewed with all barley malt. Do you agree?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%. Yeah. You know, they all have their purpose, they all have their flavor, texture, you know, what have you. And yeah, I think it shouldn't be something that should be shamed upon or denounced, like embrace it and you know, really own it.
SPEAKER_01It adds a very light, a very dry texture to the beer, but a really nice, soft, perfumey quality to it as well. That can be nothing other than rice. So I'm gonna enjoy this. I'm sure I'm gonna have another. You were kind enough to send me a box, so we will explore that as we go. Thank you very much. Um, let's talk about you, Jack. Um, I want to know past, present, and then projecting into the future. I want to know about life before
Master, Master
SPEAKER_01beer. But I do want to talk about the Master Cicero exam a little bit with you, as someone who sat through it at the same time as me. And I remembered there was another candidate from Von Trapp. I just couldn't place my finger exactly on who and the name. Tell us your full name to make sure I'm nailing it correctly, please.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Uh Jack Van Papagem.
SPEAKER_01Jack Van Papagam.
SPEAKER_00Pronounced many ways. Close enough.
SPEAKER_01I deal with the same with Zooniga. I'm often told I don't say my own last name correctly. Um, but we both sat for the exam in recent years, and um I want to, before we get to life, um, life and beer, I just kind of want to know about your journey as a Cicerone from certified to advanced and to master. Um, there's so little information about the master exam that's available um that is shared. Uh, you know, it's a very small group. I think we're talking about 30, maybe less in the world. And uh the Master Cicerone syllabus is kind of frustratingly vague. I think people who have passed or attempted the exam are hesitant to share any information about it just uh for fear of maybe giving away too much. So I would love to know from your perspective about someone who sat through it all, your experience, uh, your takeaway from the exam. Was that your first attempt? Uh will
Jack's journey with Cicerone
SPEAKER_01it be your last? Tell us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I have a kind of interesting trajectory with Cisrone program. So I first kind of got aware of it when I was working in DC. Uh after graduation, I started working at a beer bar, uh, was homebrewing at the time, and you know, it was required to pass the level one exam just to kind of be, you know, a good server. So took care of that. Uh then yeah, passed the level two in, I don't know, 2011, 2012. I think there were four certified cis rounds in DC at the time. You know, I was number six or seven. So yeah, one of the first kind of at that time, which felt felt pretty important. Uh then yeah, just kind of pursued my beer career, ended up doing the Siebel Domens program. And yeah, graduated out of that in 2013. And yeah, after that, I just kind of got the bug. It was partially like, you know, self-imolation of wanting to push myself to really like be as hard as possible and see what I can do, uh, just to challenge, you know, that's just just kind of who I am. So yeah, really kind of took it seriously after getting out of SIBL. And, you know, everyone then's just like green, they know everything, they they're the best brewers in the world. And uh at the time I thought I was doing pretty well. So yeah, first time I took the master's cicerone exam was in 2015. Um, back then, I think there were still just like 1415 at the time. Uh so we were the last class to go from certified to master. There were so many people failing the master exam where they're like, okay, we need to introduce the advanced level, the third level. Yeah. Uh so after that, I took the advanced the first time they offered it. So yeah, I was in the first group of six people who got the advanced certification, uh, which was pretty, pretty unique test because yeah, after taking the master exam, you know, you're feeling pretty down and out, and you're just like, shit, am I ready to do this again? But then luckily they rolled out the level three, and I was like, okay, this should be a cakewalk. And, you know, it was fine, ended up doing it. Congratulations.
SPEAKER_01And then yeah, it took a feeling.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And then, yeah, just took a very long hiatus before I even considered taking the master again. Because as you know what it takes out of you in terms of like studying mental preparation, uh, you know, missing social engagements because you're doing off-flavors tastings with people, like it takes a lot. It takes a lot of your personal social emotional time to study for this test. So yeah, yeah, it wasn't until 2024, or no, it was actually 2023 that I was going to take it again. Uh, the week before the test, I got COVID and lost my sense of smell and taste. And I was like, this is the absolute worst thing that could happen at this time.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, it would have been even more impressive if you passed, but yeah, I mean, totally.
SPEAKER_00So I was just like, shit, man. I yeah, emailed some folks at the program. I was just like, hey, I can't taste or smell anything right now. And uh they were very understanding, and so they allowed me to postpone it for a year. Uh so yeah, come 2024, that's when we we crossed paths again and uh yeah, took the test again nine years later for my first try. And yeah, believe it or not, got the same score both times, but within those nine years, learned so much more about the beer industry, brewing, QC, sensory. Uh so I don't know. I think like there's so much to honor to be a master of Cicerone, but at the same time, there's so much that that test doesn't cover, you know, that real life experiences, that books that BJCP doesn't cover, you know, it's one thing to be like a walking dictionary, but uh honestly, like day-to-day hands-on experience that that goes world. And again, that's not to discount anyone that's taken or passed the test. It's just yeah, different ways of learning, presenting your knowledge, sharing it with other people. And yeah, uh, I'm just curious what what
Adam's journey with Cicerone
SPEAKER_00drove you to take the master test?
SPEAKER_01I mean, my story's similar to yours, as is everyone who speaks about this, and um, I think again, like congratulations all around from certified to advanced to attempting the master. And I hope that informed your experience um and your education along the way. But I agree with you, there is we learn by doing, and there's nothing better than having hands-on experience to do it. So I, you know, similar, like I kind of undertook the beer server exam myself. I was uh working for a brewery in New York City, uh known as Six Point, uh, that wanted to invest in having a sales team of certified Ciceroans. It was still an early kind of young program, young certification at the time, and I was the first at the brewery to get it, um, which was incredibly gratifying and felt very relevant. Like it gave me a calling card uh to an industry of which I was brand new and then eventually like embraced and absorbed and accepted by. And the certified exam only helped with that. Um, because I was the first to do it, and on that trajectory, they supported me taking the advanced exam, which I did at Two Roads in Connecticut. And you know, after I passed that, there was a little bit of a shrug. And it's like, well, I guess what do you do now and what's next? Must be the master, right? But what's interesting, like in my travel so far, the advanced designation, I almost feel like it's a little bit of a red flag for employers. Like, I'm not sure it's really like advanced me further. I think a lot of people stop and ask, how hype maintenance is this person gonna be to work with? Is this still going to be fun? And of course, I try to greet that with a resounding yes. Um, but it was that same spirit of inquiry and adventure that allowed me to undertake the master exam or that drove me to do it. Um, but my experience with you was the first time. As of now, I want to say it's the last time. It's become a calling card for this show as a failed master Cicero. And it's just interesting because I, you know, I was always pretty good in school. Um, I've never failed anything that bad in my entire life, honestly. So that that begs the question why? You know, I don't know if people even take the SATs anymore. I took it blind, I took it cold, I didn't do great, but it was still like, okay, you can go to college. Now, if that had been this exam, no, you do not get to pass go. So I do have to ask myself why and what for. And I still don't really have valid answers to that question uh that propel me to do it again. Um, the experience, I want to say if you can sit through that exam and give a and survive it and give a coherent answer to everything, you should be in good standing to pass. But this idea that you have to do it over and over and over again and do a little bit better each time kind of feels like a Ponzi scheme. And again, the information available doesn't really progress as the exam does over the years. So we're still kind of taking it as a shot in the dark. And I think the feedback, the grading for me and for many is what's so frustrating uh as for any, because you're given um I mean, for me, the outcome was like all of this. I really appreciate what is factual. They're like, this is factually incorrect, quantitatively incorrect. You can't argue with that. But so much of the feedback is this isn't provocative enough, this isn't visceral enough, this isn't deep enough, and that doesn't mean it isn't wrong. So I'm sorry I didn't write you a poem or a haiku in the time I had to do this. And I'm still just wondering what the application is. I do think for a quality manager, you're probably up against more of those like 30 off flavors that we have to identify on a regular basis. So maybe it is more relevant there. Um if uh, you know, I mean, if I was a restaurant owner, if I was a brewery owner, if I was a brewer, that might be a different story. I think the people making the most of the certification are the ones who are really invested in either hospitality and the experience around it or judging, people who travel the world applying this to judging competitions. And you are well traveled, my friend. I know that already. So you may have a hand in that as well. These are all valid expressions of being a Cicerone, whether that is uh uh certified, advanced, or master. So that's my gripe gripe. I don't want it to sound like sour grapes. I don't want it to sound like a sour mash. You can always say, well, what would the perspective be if you had passed? But it's just really kind of interesting and cathartic to talk about it with someone who's been through the same experience together and multiple times for that matter. So do you think you'll take it again?
SPEAKER_00Um, no, but I yeah, I want to say what you said is totally, totally clear. I reson that resonates with me. And yeah, it's we're we're part of this group that has this shared trauma, you know, of sitting for two days and just like wasting our life away to not get the results we want. And, you know, it's yeah, it's endearing to a fact that we can sit around and talk about it and we we survived it. There's clearly worse things in the world to do that that are going on to help people, but uh yeah, it's not on my radar right now. Um, I am just really enjoying having this year, not even thinking about studying. You know, I do this day-to-day at work all the time, you know, running a sensory program, doing QC. So that's enough as it is. I like doing other things with my time, and you know, not to again disempower anyone that's thinking about taking this test. Like it's the greatest journey about building your education, your knowledge, your passion. And yeah, the reward, it's tough, but like hopefully, hopefully you get there, you know. And when we took it, nobody passed. That was kind of the crazy thing, is that nobody was good enough. Yeah, that was the year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, there might come a point where no one signs up or shows up for the Master Cicero exam with a pass rate of zero to one. Um, so we shall see. I still see value in the program, and I think you are right to to encourage it. Um, but we are also right to commiserate and have a beer over it. Um, that's what lager beer and all beer is good for. So thank you for sharing, my friend. And uh let's wash that away. And I want
Know your quality manager
SPEAKER_01to talk about you. I want to talk about life before beer uh as a human being, before you were a human brewing. Just tell us a little bit about Jack uh prior to Von Trapp. Um, tell us about other jobs you've had, um, and then tell us ultimately how this passion became a profession for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. So, what kind of led me to this point? Uh I went to college in Washington, D.C., uh originally from Sun Valley, Idaho. So yeah, really just wanted to get as far away from possible as there. So went to the coast, went to DC. Uh, yeah, thought I was gonna do politics, political science. That clearly didn't pan out. Uh yeah. Oh, I hope not. Uh yeah, made the jump into anthropology, you know, and that comes with a whole slew of future, you know, brightness. So yeah, after graduating with anthropology degree, did the classic thing, took a year off before I really wanted to go to grad school. Uh, in that year off, got into homebrewing, worked at the local beer bar. And yeah, that's really what kind of sparked my interest in crafting beer, making really good beer, uh, traveling the world to drink good beer, see those cultures, uh, experience it all firsthand. And yeah, in that time, uh, I was really lucky. The bar I was working at, we were one of the first places in Washington, D.C. to launch Oxbow. Uh, so Tim Adams came down and yeah, I remember rolling the first kegs of Oxbow out of his van into our bar, tapped them right away against all good lessons we're taught. But yeah, having those first sips of farmhouse pale ale, you know, in this bar into sea, it was just kind of like kind of opening my mind of like, okay, there are American brewers making Saison with an American twist. And uh yeah, that really just like stoked my passion for farmhouse sales. And at the time there were things like still water going on, there were other American breweries making uh farmhouse style beers, but truly not that many folks living on a farm with animals making awesome rustic Saison. So, yeah, Oxbo was really what kind of captivated me into getting into kind of the production zone. own. Uh so yeah, that's when I met Tim Adams and just kind of like got in touch with him, talked with him, uh, told him I was doing the Seable Domens program. And he was just like, hey man, hit me up when you're done. There might be some room for you up in Maine. And yeah, absolutely jumped at that opportunity because I was thinking there was nothing, nothing better than to get your foot in the door at some total awesome operation that you know I was admiring back at the time. Yeah. So yeah, started out as Oxpo's first intern. And yeah, back in the good old days when you could work for free at a brewery, you know, it was six months of shoveling grain and shit and doing all the fun dirty work. And yeah, would would never look back, you know, it was some of the greatest greatest days of my you know career. Yeah. And yeah, from there it spawned into everything from packaging, starting a QC program, um, yeah, and everything else has got a history.
SPEAKER_01That's incredible. I I don't think I knew that you had Oxbow in your background. I have visited the the original site. I think there's multiple now, right? But I've I've been to the farmhouse brewery out in the middle of nowhere, rural Maine. And I've got to say like what an adventure it was man. Yeah totally. That's incredible. That's incredible. What's the and I remember when what's the pilsner? What's the pilsner from from Oxbow? Oh maybe there's more multiple. Yeah I remember when that first landed and hit New York City Sign of the Times then and what was to come that was such an exciting beer. That's amazing. So okay so heard on Oxpo and then what happened after that? How did you ultimately come to be part of the if you'll forgive me saying it the Von Trapp family singer with my friend. How how did what how did the road lead to Von Trapp?
SPEAKER_00Yeah so I was at Oxbow from uh 2014 to 2020 and had the chance to visit Stowe Vermont a couple times in those years and just like really fell in love with it. It's a beautiful place and we would always come to Von Trapp and drink the beers and it was just like when you're sitting here drinking the beer looking at the mountain you're just like holy shit this is fantastic. Like this is this is worth living for you know and uh the opening for quality manager just kind of like popped up and I said okay this is something I would change my life for so yeah October of 2020 took the gig and moved here in the middle of COVID during the election uh it was pretty crazy transition. I bet and yeah started here in 2020 built the lab up built the sensory program up and yeah encountered a ton of issues head on and yeah kept me very busy and yeah I think we're we're making pretty good beer now and yeah it's been quite the journey.
SPEAKER_01I mean it's not just you and I that think so the entire industry thinks so and regards you as such. Um let's talk about the brewery now that we know our our quality manager a bit better. And I want to make sure I get this right just because
Know your brewery
SPEAKER_01the past is important here. Like yes we are talking about the von Trapp family that inspired the sound of music. So known as the Trapp family singers it's George and Maria von Trapp. I think they had 10 children total from his two marriages and they immigrated to America um before the outbreak of World War II when Hitler invaded Austria toured here as a singing group essentially broke and penniless from the financial collapse in Austria as a result and then found home on a farm site in Stowe Vermont and founded a lodge in 1950 that burned to the ground and was rebuilt in 1980 as a 96 room full-scale resort on 2600 acres um and then the brewery came along in 2010 and that was founded by help me with this name as well is it Johan Johann von Trapp? Johannes Johannes Johannes von Trapp who was the youngest and I believe at this point only surviving original trial child from George and Maria still alive I hope. Correct yeah very alive and well Johannes thank you for your service to Lager Beer um and it was built in the basement originally for the sake of beers you can have at lunch without a nap. And I will say thank you again Johannes the art of day drinking has been long lost at least here in America so I appreciate your vision. Is that correct? At least can you tell us just your take on this elaborate and beautiful story of the Von Trapp family fleeing Nazi Europe only to find home in a similar setting as uh as Austria in Vermont among the Green Mountains to build a lodge to build a brewery and to continue building upon like their family tradition heritage and culture there yeah absolutely you did your your research and presented that pretty much to a T. But yeah so you know Will the last thing I'll say on it is Sound of the music sound the sound of music was one of the first movies I ever saw. So it's right up there with Disney and among my earliest memories my friend so I want to get this right. Please continue. Nice.
SPEAKER_00And yeah so they became a hospitality family you know they slowly started bringing people in the lodge they grew it into an outdoor center. It was the first cross country ski center in the country uh then expanded it to guest houses um lots of beautiful trails around here maple production that's a big part of it and yeah started the cafe house which is the Delhi Bakery and that's where the brewery started and again because this is a hospitality family they're never going to pretend to be you know a third generation brewmaster family so they did hire some brewers that they trusted to make good loggers and yeah that's what was coming out of the basement of that little Delhi bakery back in 2010. And we all really thank Johannes for his foresight to make Hellas as the flagship beer. When you think about what was popular in 2010 it was like Imperial IPAs, pastry stouts, all these crazy beers and he's just like forget that I want Hellas and it's still a battle to this day to educate people what a Hellas is you know it's not a household name like Pilsner or Pale Ale or something like that.
SPEAKER_01So that's really the fight we're still fighting every day and I think yeah this is the time where people are coming back around to it and we've just been humbly doing this since 2010 and yeah I think we we haven't changed course and we're we're sticking by it ahead of the game ahead of the curve again I appreciate the vision and not just like the you know he clearly saw opportunity in the market um but is willing to invest in something that might outlast kind of time and trend and taste and put just a lot of investment and faith in lager beer and that the American craft audience would ultimately come to it. So I have to appreciate the foresight let's talk about the brewery as of present day. I know it's led by Sam Von Trapp and Sam if you're listening thank you for the brewery tour. Again what a small world this is not just from us knowing each other from the master sister on exam but I think you know when I was at six point Von Trapp was in the same distribution house at Union Beer. So it was through that I was able to take a private brewery tour uh just with Sam which was which was such a gift and such a luxury and I'm so thankful for it. So led by Sam since 2015 is Von Trapp brewing kind of renamed and rebranded now a 30,000 square foot facility complete with a Roleck brew house capable of 36,000 barrels annually I believe the brewery, the beer hall and the surrounding region are solar powered by Encore renewable energy, which is amazing. This is another thing that is incredibly important to the dialogue around craft beer the investment and sustainability. And again you've been recognized with numerous medals for each and every individual beer sense almost and took uh 2024 brewery of the year along with a gold medal for your Hellas at the Great American Beer Festival. So that brings us up to present day so Sam clearly took the reins from Johannes
Know your lab
SPEAKER_01and made an excellent choice in hiring bringing you on board was there as much of an investment in the lab prior or was that really did that come with you is that what you brought to the game at Von Trapp Yeah so when they were building out this facility they again had the foresight to have a lab QC program but there uh there's the physical place, you know what you see behind me, but there was nothing in it.
SPEAKER_00There was a uh dusty microscope and some old boxes and nobody to really run it. So yeah they clearly thought that this was important. It just never kind of came to fruition uh until I stepped in and kind of owned it. But again when you're talking about an investment this is again the jump up from seven barrel brew house in a bakery basement to this giant 50 barrel Rolex system and uh it's a hammer. It's such a beast of a system that you know you got to bank on making a lot of beers and selling a lot of lager and I think yeah we're we're keeping up and we would love to be making more uh yeah we have capacity and yeah I think what's what's going on is that we're just itching to make more things like light lager and this other beer that we'll taste soon. But yeah quality it's been a big part since day one and it's been you know an honor to continue that add to it grow the program and you know pass on the education that comes with it.
SPEAKER_01Amazing um that they had a lab to begin with um I mean I was so struck while I was there. And it's not again not to talk shit on just like the sea of IPA out of Vermont but that you found a point of differentiation in the market. And when I visited the brewery I was just so impressed by how new it felt how polished it was just the size and scale and scope of it compared to like you know someone brewing out of like an extension of their garage for example and maybe both have a time and a place and a lot of romance around the idea but I could just see that Vaughn Trap was built completely differently and really invested in the long haul. You know so I love the vision again and I think you are distributed in maybe 17 plus states as of now and come as far west as Colorado and Oregon if that's about correct and but not California yet so I will say again thank you for the beer box that you shared with me my friend um that's just amazing.
Vienna lager
SPEAKER_01That's just amazing and uh I want to talk about Austrian beer and food um as your foundation I want to know just as a as a also as a master cicerone candidate tell me like Austrian beer style Austrian food Austrian culture just how is it different not only from your immediate surroundings in Vermont Vermont but take us to continental Europe. Can you tell me a little bit about how it might be different from some of some of the neighbors there it's like like German you know for example like an Austrian beer how might it differ from a German beer uh from a Czech beer what do you all that what do you all do that is kind of different and unique to put a spin on it and define it as Austrian yeah definitely so I think geographically if we're looking at it Austria is kind of cradled between Bavaria and Bohemia.
SPEAKER_00So it was part of that whole kind of brewing network back in the day and we all know that that tale of Anton Dre in 1841 making Vienna lager for that first time and yeah I love the story that that's was truly the first Pale Lager to this day which went on to inspire the Czech Pale Lager or the Pilsner you know uh so again a marine of German tradition Czech tradition uh I think yeah it's this unique crossover and yeah having spent some time in Austria it's cool to figure out what they're embracing from the old tradition like it's when I went to Vienna it was truly difficult to find a Vienna lager you know it's kind of this American Americanized things that we we just like fantasize about we make this like big fat malt sweet amber lager and that's absolutely not what they're drinking. Yeah historic Vienna lager was kind of pale orange it was dry bitter might have had Czech sauce hops could have had German hops um but yeah I think it's coming back around and there are some smaller breweries that are really doing their own thing like Hofstetten uh amazing farmhouse brewery kind of in the north we we were lucky enough to brew a collaboration with them they're doing things like granite box they're doing honey beers uh they're brewing their own kind of take on lagers but yeah it's really kind of a unique diverse culture in Austria as far as what they're making uh one of the other differentiators is they drink a lot of Merzen there but Merzen's actually a Hellas uh so it's super confusing so when you go to a bar order Merzen it's this pale light crisp beer uh there are different variations on it and that was kind of the conversation which inspired our collaboration with Jack Zabbey uh we initially wanted to make an Austrian Merzen but we're like okay well are people gonna expect an Oktoberfest they're gonna get a Hellas we already make both of them this is too confusing so we just made up our own beer style Austrian style export logger and it it somehow worked amazing so I I love the just the the the picture you paint that the kind of Austria kind of reaps some of the benefits of its location being in like what is essentially like the cradle of modern beer civilization right being kind of nestled in between Germany and the Czech Republic or now Czech yeah we we can call it the cradle of modern lager civilization how is that you know and really interesting maybe slightly controversial I love the passion behind you know that Austria vienal was essentially the first pale lager.
SPEAKER_01And you're not wrong it's just not often talked about and cited that way. And then we see American brewers kind of resurrecting it and making their own rock star version of it we see interpretations of it you know that originally came out of Mexico with European immigrants you know um I do want to know
Viennese food
SPEAKER_01also just food in terms of kind of like the beer haul on site how does that food kind of maybe differ um from what you might get in Germany or Chechia and just the relationship between beer and food in Austria can you just speak to a little bit of that yeah I think it is very Bavarian inspired there are some you know regional delicacies a lot of the pastries are you know unique to Austria versus something you would get in Munich or elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00But yeah I think it's the same kind of menu of Schnitzel, Spitzel, Bratwurst, Bauernwurst, Schweinhawks, all that you know the the heavy hitters of every good beer hall. Yeah. And yeah there are some unique ones like having a Schnitzel entree that's that's pretty Austrian uh we've definitely owned owned the Schnitzel uh but yeah again just like looking at that region there's so much crossover and you know interplay between beer and food cultures that yeah it's it's a little of everything.
SPEAKER_01Sounds delicious and I can vouch for it because I've been there. Something else I know there's a natural
Taste the Green Mountains
SPEAKER_01spring behind the lodge that serves as your water source. This is the last time I'm gonna grill you as a master cicerone candidate. And it's selfish because this is one of the hardest things for me. Like water is in my mind one of the most complex things to like speak about in such a way people can understand and to retain the knowledge without having to consistently remind yourself if you're not regularly working with it. So my understanding is uh the water um uh therein stow uh that serves von trapped is basically identical to pills and water from Chechia it's incredibly soft low mineral content low solve content it's very pure and essentially a blank slate um can you just tell us as a quality manager I don't know if you have a hack in your back pocket you know just kind of how do you typically like express water um just water chemistry if you're talking about it to someone who wants to know but maybe doesn't know the full extent of it. And uh how is it exactly similar to pills and water and what is the benefit of that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah definitely so water chemistry is very low on my experience level too so I I think I skipped a couple of those questions on the exam. We're in it together way more esoteric. Because yeah even at Oxpo it was farmhouse well water untreated we didn't do anything to it we don't treat any of the water here but yeah if you look at an analytical breakdown low in all of your irons minerals uh magnesium etc your hardness is very low uh very neutral very soft and again we don't treat it or do anything to it uh we could really get into it and build up a Munich profile for a Hellas or Dunkel uh but we like it on the soft side we don't add anything to get there and we think it works. Yeah but again yeah it's very similar to that of Pils in Czech Republic Czechia and I think it really shows just its softness. It works for a lot of our different beers um and we have played with it we brewed a Dortmunder last year we added some salts to get it to that level but we still I think it's characteristic for our lagers just that softness that cleanness it allows for soft accentuated mouthfeel from the malts and yeah it doesn't bring out that kind of like stripping character of pops when you add too much sulfate and yeah we just think it's balanced and um again like I could nerd out on this but I don't have to just because the water's so reliable consistent and I'm knocking on wood because it's a spring and it hasn't run dry yet so we're we're just going with it.
SPEAKER_01Ha ha no you you nailed it you answered my question exactly and underlying that I am curious like when breweries boast their water supply um does it at the end of the day I'm just kind of curious like does it really matter whether you're kind of drawing from a natural spring adjacent to the brew house or if you're just using the municipal water supply type treat and like salt as needed we'll say like do you think water is we all know how essential and integral and important it is to beer.
SPEAKER_00Do you think the actual source makes a difference or it can really be kind of doctored uh however you want uh in a modern brew house yeah I mean it's easy to romanticize this beautiful spring bubbling up in the green mountains but uh yeah you can get city water RO it build it back up and probably make fantastic beer with it nothing nothing no problem against that but yeah uh yeah we just have the convenience of this flowing downstream right into the brewery and not having to touch it I mean that is a gift and uh again it really adds to I think just the sense of place you know whether uh whether it's there in Stowe or anywhere else you know just that you are directly connected to this the the land and the setting around you.
SPEAKER_01So I love it. Um let's talk more about how that water is used and all your other ingredients. So speaking about core
All lager all the time
SPEAKER_01beers core lagers um because I don't think you produce a year-round IPA or another style outside of the lager category is that correct I guess we could argue Kolsch.
SPEAKER_00Kolsch is year round that's our our ale that gets laggered but yeah it's all all lagers.
SPEAKER_01I see okay so I see a Bohemian pills a Hellas Kolsch Vienna Dunkel and the light lager that I just finished so I'm gonna pour another beer in just a moment thank you for that um all of these beers are except for the Dunkel they're basically five two and under they're produced year round and something I've got to love is the fact that they're in 12 ounce cans. So these are beers that are meant for drinking and there's not an IPA in sight. Thank you for that thank you for your service. Seasonal beers I see a summer Hefeweisen of course an Oktoberfest a smoke dark lager and a schwartz beer I mean I would make the journey back to Vermont just for those last two my God and then there's a variety of specialty beers you do to celebrate your anniversary a wad a Rattler there's a West Coast Pills which you might crack into shortly you have a partnership Vermont adaptive adaptive ski and sport center and that's basically for all bodies and all abilities to engage in the natural surroundings and get outside in Vermont which is just beautiful. So just tell us a little bit about these beers how did you land on the core uh that you have um how do you decide on the seasonals that you brew and then I also want to talk about the collabs as well.
SPEAKER_00So tell us a little bit about core versus seasonal please yeah definitely so again this all started with Hellas uh that was the beer Johannes wanted to brew and drink and that's been holding the brewery down for as long as possible. So yeah that was really the kind of first one and from then it kind of took Sam nudging Johannes to be like hey you know maybe we should add a little variety to our lineup you know there's only a few breweries in the world that can pull off the one beer game. And you know we're not Orval we're not we're not doing that shtick but yeah so I believe they introduced the Vienna lager. Or I think it could have been the Oktoberfest first as a seasonal and then Vienna became a more approachable year round beer because it doesn't have seasonality built into its name. So that was our amber lager to kind of counter our Pellus Pillager. Then from there Pilsner was introduced as the kind of hoppy Option. We're talking 42 IBU, pyre whirlpool content, uh something a little more aromatic, more bitter than the Hellas. And again, if you put Hellas and Pilsner next to each other to the common beer drinker, they might not know the difference, but like we celebrate those subtle differences. Absolutely. And then yeah, rolled in Duncle as our kind of darker option. And it is a more robust dunkel than a lot of others. It's 5.7%. Uh on the slightly roastier side, it's not super sweet or bitter. It's balanced. But uh yeah, again, one of those year-round beers that it doesn't feel like a winter beer. It's not too heavy and filling. Uh so yeah, it kind of fills out the calendar. And then Kol's just became one of those kind of weird add-ons. It was a summer seasonal at one point. People really enjoyed it, so we just decided to keep brewing it.
SPEAKER_01Let's
Friendly Frenemies
SPEAKER_01talk a little bit more about collaboration beers as well. Because in addition to the core, the seasonal, the specialty, uh, you collab pretty regularly with breweries kind of up and down the east coast. So um, I've seen Narragansett, I've seen Trogues, I've seen Barrel Brothers, I've seen Zero Gravity, and you spoke a little bit about Jack's Abbey. Um, and I would love to get more of your take on that beer because Jack Hindler, who literally wrote the book on Modern Lager, is gonna be on this show next. So just tell us a little bit about first and foremost, how you and how Von Trapp decides kind of who they're gonna collaborate with, when for what, you know, what kind of drives your interest in collaborating with other breweries. And uh specifically with Jack's Abbey, just give us kind of some of the backstory on that beer and then your take on how it all came out so Jack and I can compare. The other Jack and I will say that, can compare notes on our next episode, please.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. So we kind of kicked off our collab series a few years ago. The first one was with Upper Pass. Uh, they're a smaller Vermont brewery, which is funny because we were contract brewing their beer and we somehow did a collaboration with them. Um that was a dry-hopped Colch, and that really kind of like got it out there that, like, hey, Von Trapp is trying new things. We're doing new stuff that's loggers, we're selling them in 16-ounce cans, which for us was kind of unheard of. Uh so we launched what was called the Stowstyle series. That was the kind of first iteration of our collab series. And yeah, it's a mix of kind of like who our sales team wants us to get with, because if we're in certain markets, if we brew with, you know, Trogues, we're gonna get a bump in Pennsylvania. If we brew with Thin Man, maybe that'll help out in New York State. Um then there was just kind of like selfishly some breweries that myself and the other brewers want to work with. Um, so we kind of had this kind of conversation about who works for us, you know, what works for who, and just how to make it happen. And it's really like given us the opportunity to get out of our comfort zones and brew wacky things like a maple dunkelweizen, or uh we've worked with a lot of people on your show. We've worked with Live Oak, Human Robot, you know, all the heavy hitters of the craft lager world.
SPEAKER_01Oh one thing, uh, we forgot to mention that you offer disc golf. So if Dusan at Live Oak is listening, that's probably one of the single most important details. So truly something for everyone. Uh, but yes, Live Oak, and yes to everyone else on this show you've collaborated with, and yes to everyone else who you will collaborate with. Um, by all means not to interrupt. Continue, please.
SPEAKER_00No, totally. Like this is definitely a mecca for disc golf as it is for Tucson out in Austin. Um, but again, yeah, the collab series was just for us to get out there, meet new people, learn techniques, talk with other folks, see what they're doing, and yeah, just try weird stuff. And so we've done everything from Smoketelus, Maple Duncan, uh, we don't hope you logers, we did a thialized lager yeast, you know, double IPA crazy beer. Um, so yeah, it's stuff that has pushed us and pushed our boundaries. And what's wild is that we don't pilot any of these things. These are all 200 barrel, 300 barrel batches that we just kind of throw out in the wild, and I feel like we've been pretty successful with them. So uh testament to our brewers, our seller team, our packagers. Uh yeah, it's just been kind of a gamble, but it I think it's paid off.
SPEAKER_01That's so cool. Um yeah, on our on our previous episode with Josh at Cerveso at Hercules, um, same thing. Like what drives the collaboration is the opportunity to step out of your comfort zone and do something different. And I think it's particularly compelling for Von Trapp, who has historically been all logger all the time, uh, to meet up and match up with other breweries who don't necessarily do that or think differently. You know, that's that is really compelling. That is really compelling.
Jack von Trapp and Jack's Abby
SPEAKER_01Um, more about Jack's Abbey, just the history behind that, how did it begin? Um, talking about an Austrian-style export beer. You spoke to it before, but just tell us a little bit more and set the stage for what we're going to try on the next episode of No Life to Lager.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. So we have a pretty big presence in Massachusetts. And um, to be frank, like Jack's Abbey has always been our biggest competition. And I see that as a positive thing, you know, like they got so many people in New England hooked on craft loggers. And, you know, we came around right at the same time, 2010, and we were kind of doing our niche thing up in Vermont. They were down in mass, they've obviously grown a ton. Um, but yeah, and there was never any like animosity or like that kind of competition. It was just we we were kind of doing our own thing, and we came together and we're just like, you know what, why not? You know, we're in the same boat, let's make an awesome beer together. And yeah, that's where we just kind of got in touch with them and started talking, and that's where this wacky idea of an Austrian export logger came together, and they were on board, and yeah, they came up, we had a great time, made up this style, and yeah, everyone we talked to really doesn't know what it is, but they really enjoy it, and I think that's that's what matters.
SPEAKER_01Ah uh first and foremost, yes. Um, it really is Von Trapp and Jax Abbey. Those are among the first that I think of uh coming up in beer in New York that were known for like for lager brewing, for all lager brewing. And it really just raised the question of why it really stood out because you were doing what no one else was doing at the time, at least not exclusively. So um it's often said that there are only friends in the craft beer industry, you know, that question becomes like increasingly complicated as shell space and bar tap handles become increasingly limited. But I still see a just a really persevering sense of respect and a community and a sense that we are in this together. So that you could come together. Um, we will say, uh, with a what, both friend and foe. No, I'm just kidding. All friends, you know, in Massachusetts. Like that's that's awesome. And I cannot waste to taste the fruit of the labor.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. And like to add on what you said, I think the camaraderie, especially within the lager circle, it's so strong and so high-end. Like you go to the Czech hop rubbing room at CBC and you see all those people that you've collaborated with and had beers with a hundred times. And uh yeah, I think everyone's just like shared passion for loggers, it's obvious. And the reason why you're doing the show and why we're talking, you know. So yeah, the more folks we can collaborate with, the better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I in the same way that I was on like an IPA run to Vermont back around like 2016 or so. I I cannot tell you how much I love the fact that I can land in any beer state or any beer city right now. And the odds are high, or at least reasonable, that I can find someone pouring a Czech Pilsner through a Lucrefaucet into a dimple mug. I love that. And it's not just a sign of how much times have changed, but it still feels like new and fresh and interesting, and it keeps my beer travels focused and compels me to continue, continue on this adventure. So I love it. I absolutely love it. Um
Fest season
SPEAKER_01any festivals that you uh work or attend or regularly have at the brewery. Um, I know there's an Oktoberfest. I think you have a music and food festival coming up. Just tell us a little bit about like how often your team kind of hits the road to represent outside of Von Trap and how often you host events and festivals at the brewery and beer hall.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so here on site, Oktoberfest is kind of our bread and butter. Uh yeah, it traditionally lines up with the first tapping at the Oktoberfest in Munich. So uh what is that, third Saturday in September? And yeah, that's really our big festival that we kind of put everything into. So it's a fun time. It's you know controlled chaos, it doesn't get as wild as some of the other Oktoberfests out there. But yeah, lots of good food. We generally make some casks of Oktoberfest and some other beers. Uh yeah, great turnout when it's a beautiful day here in Stowe in September, like nothing beats it. And yeah, we're we're just still happy to be doing this 10 years down the road, if not more. Yeah. Uh then yeah, as far as other festivals out in the world, you know, we have attended Logjamin every year. We have been doing a lot of the lager-focused festivals. Um yeah, we have a good sales presence kind of in mid-Atlantic Philly area, uh, New England, clearly. And yeah, we we really like to engage people because people come to our tent knowing that they can get our beer most everywhere, but they're at the end of the festival, they say, Damn, I just want a Hellas, and you guys are pouring this, so thank you. And that's like the most rewarding thing after seeing these people getting just like sloshed on IPAs and sours, etc., to always come back to the Hellas booth. And yeah, we're we're stoked on that.
SPEAKER_01You're here for them. That's a huge part of why I ask. Like, honestly, I could drink this beer all day and not regret it the next day, and that's what's most important. Um, one last question before we move on to our lightning round and the few kind of rapid-fire QA that I I love to ask at the end of every episode.
Contract with Trapp
SPEAKER_01Um, but you mentioned contract brewing before. Um, the idea of quality contract brewing has come up again and again on this show, just in terms of like breweries supporting breweries in what is, you know, admittedly like trying more challenging times. And Von Trapp was clearly built to scale, and you're able to contract brew. So, can you tell us a little bit about just, you know, what amount of your production is contract brewing? I don't know if you want to cite any partners you work with or what you look for in that partners, or just how it's helping you maybe continue to both sustain and grow your business. Contract brewing, it's no longer a dirty word. It's no longer pointing the finger at who brews what, where, and how, so long as it is done well. So tell us your take on it and tell us kind of how much Vaughn Trap does of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we've had a handful of different contracts over the time. I mentioned Upper Pass before. Um, yeah, they've since moved on and they're, you know, doing their own thing in Burlington now with the new space. But uh yeah, we currently have one contract partner and it's Mount Holly. They make uh hazy IPAs. You know, I just talked about not making those, but we're making hazy's almost every month here, and uh, they really enjoy what's coming out of here. I treat any contract brew with the same quality diligence as I do our lager. So uh yeah, there's no reason to think that the quality would be different, even if I'm not a hazy drinker. Um yeah, and it's a small percentage of our overall production, but it keeps the tanks full, it keeps the schedule moving, uh, it lets us play with interesting hops, different different techniques and you know, ale fermentations, all of that stuff. So yeah, it's really kind of like differentiates us in our schedule and gives us something new to do. Um but yeah, perfect world. You know, we'd be cranking out everything, filling up our facility. But yeah, it's just it's part of the industry, it's the nature we're heading in. And uh our problem now is that our we're too big to fulfill a lot of contracts. We have hundred-barrel tanks and 200-barrel tanks. It's hard to squeeze in a 30-barrel brew into a big tank for uh fermentation issue reasons, packaging reasons. We have a good amount of loss that goes over to the bright tank, uh, goes over to packaging. So yeah, it's kind of finding that partner that's willing to commit to 50 barrels, 100 barrels, 200. So yeah, and where where the industry is at right now, that's kind of a hard, hard, sweet spot to reach. So we're we're kind of happy we're we're at right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, uh again, just you are built to brew. And I think, yeah, I on some level it must be kind of fun having like it must be kind of fun being able to play with IPA, being able to play with ales just because you are a devoted lager brewery. So I hope it keeps things interesting. I hope it makes things different, and I hope you continue to grow with contract, with contract brewers as partners. Um, I think that's a really compelling business model for anyone looking to enter this industry now and to build a brand going forward. So, I mean, I'd be very proud if my beer came out of trap in the same way. I would imagine Lawson's was very proud when their beer was coming out of Two Roads. Like there's no shame in it, it's nothing to hide, and it allows you to enter a market without a huge capital investment of building your own brewery. So I would say a very worthy cause, my friend. And um, to you, to Sam, to Johannes, uh, I will repeat again thank you for your service. So cheers. Um, I want to move
The Sounds Of Music
SPEAKER_01on to a few last questions I love to ask everybody. This is about both you and the brewery. Um, let's talk about brewhouse music. Uh, I know you have a musical ear. I know many, if not most, if not all, brewers have a background in music or at least a passion for it. So, what do you like to listen to while you're brewing?
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's funny. So, how our brewery is kind of broken up. The brew house is up top, which is adjacent to the observation deck. Uh, the music up there is controlled by the beer haul. So, whatever the restaurant is listening to, whatever the banquets at the observation are listening to, that kind of flows down into the brew deck. So, that can be any number of top hundred hits. It can be whatever weirdo station they're playing. So uh they don't have too much control over there. The folks in the actual control room, they'll throw on some music on the computers, whatever, to drown it out. Uh, but yeah, the main source of music is down here in the cellar. Uh, we have a great old Milwaukee radio that just like gets the shittiest signal from the local station. And uh this is beyond my control. This is the role of the cellarmen. They put they choose the music, so it's a mix of 1017, that's the local classic rock station. So uh pumping out the hits, pumping out the oldies. I've heard it all a million times before, but it's it's endearing. Uh then yeah, like any good Vermont brewery, we've got some folks that love fish, love the dead. Uh that's generally when I shut my door, but I will tell them to world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I will never ask them to turn it off, but it keeps keeps some folks happy. And yeah, they'll they'll do what they do. And that's about it for music. You know, like working in a brewery, it's so important to be attuned to what's going on, what noises are happening. Uh you can hear it from across the brewery if the kettle sounds funky or if there's a CO2 leak or anything. So like a lot of the times a lot of people don't wear headphones, they don't wear earbuds, just because like, yeah, we we work with our senses, and like if you can hear a problem, it's probably pretty important because this is a very massive facility, lots of potential safety issues. So uh yeah, throwing on some dead at times is great, but like you you gotta know what's going on.
SPEAKER_01That's that's really interesting and really important that you mention it. Yeah, I mean, by all means, like staying attuned, staying present, staying focused. I guess if there's a moment in the lab where you can throw the door closed and blast whatever you want, what's it gonna be?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, knowing that someone might come in, it's gonna be something like approachable stoner metal. So like Elder, Elder's a great band, very instrumental, not not too heavy in the vocals, uh, catchy. It's you know, jammy enough for the people that like the jams. And yeah, I think you know, it's I haven't had anyone say, like, turn that shit off. You know, it's it's good stuff. Um yeah, lots of like post-metal instrumental metal stuff that that goes over fairly well. Uh, but yeah, I keep a lot of my taste to to my car and to my home.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough. There is uh there is business and there is pleasure and there is work and there is not. Um, yeah, you know, it's interesting. Like, I'm not gonna lie, I like a little bit of hippie in my metal as well. And Elder is an example of that. So good. Time and a place, very good. Um, okay. What about non-alcoholic
NA Tmavé
SPEAKER_01beer? I'm just curious, like what you offer people in the beer hall that are looking for non-alcoholic beer, your take uh just in the rise of non-alcoholic beer and the demand for it in recent years, and of course, how that fits into Von Trapp's brewery program, uh, to your roots in Austria. Just tell us a little bit more about NA beer, how you feel about it personally, if you all offer it professionally. What do we think about non-alcoholic beer?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I'm 100% for it. There's it's amazing to be at this time in the industry where there are so many good options. Like even 10 years ago, it was St. Pauli Girl and whatever, you know, Klostall or all of these really bad old German imports that nobody really liked. But uh, yeah, there's so many fantastic options right now that it's like exciting to take a break and see what tastes good in the non-alk space. And uh whether it's like Blackbew Porter, Guinness, uh anything Athletics putting out, you know, there's so many options. We have a kind of rotating list at the beer hall, so uh you can come in here and not drink beer and have a good beer experience drinking NA. And I'm totally for that. Uh as far as production, I would love to make it. We've been talking for years about making an NA tamave or an NA, you know, check pills, but there's just so much required in infrastructure, testing, pasteurization, uh, all the risk involved. I would have to expand my lab, get some more people uh to do it right. You know, there's like shortcuts, there's ways around it. Uh there's people doing some questionable NA draft beers. And yeah, it's like one of those things that if we were to do it, we would want to really invest and do the right thing. So uh yeah, for now we're gonna let the people that are doing it well continue to do it. And we are gonna keep offering things like light lager at 4% for something that want or for people that want something more sessionable. Um, and again, like there's there's other options out there. So yeah, we're we're not too concerned about chasing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I I totally believe that like if Von Trapp wanted to make that investment, you have the space and potential infrastructure for it. Um, I think you're right to say, and that is another recurring theme, that you know, making low alcohol lagers is a part of this conversation and can provide a solution uh to it or at least a viable option to people who want to drink less and still feel like they're getting more value in the process. Um, and you're right to mention, you know, alcohol is kind of a natural preservative in its own right, you know, which is why draft beer and kegs and, you know, are so problematic in terms of non-alcoholic beer and why we don't see much of it, right? If it's a single serving in a 12 or 16 ounce can that you drink in one sitting, fine. But if it's gonna sit over time, alcohol does serve uh a very important function there. So what the solution to that is, I don't think anyone has figured out quite yet.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. Couldn't couldn't endorse that more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um,
Family name, brand name
SPEAKER_01and talking about an A-beer, talking about all the celebrity partnerships around it right now, um, I would love to know for Von Trapp, just if you were, we already spoke to um, I know you have some partnerships that you brew kind of a year-round or a specialty or at least a seasonal beer with, but if you were gonna partner with anybody, uh call it a call it a celebrity, call it a local legend, um, call it what you will, just from your perspective or from the brewery's perspective, Jack. Um, who would that be? Like, is the Von Trapp family basically the the celebrity in this conversation? Or is there anyone else you'd be really interested in working with uh for personal or professional reasons to put a beer out into the world?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, the whole face of this brewery is celebrity, that's what brings people to us in the first place. And we have so many people that say, like, oh, we didn't even know you're the real Von Trapps. We thought you were just co-opting this image of the actual Von Trapps. We're like, nope, there, there's one right over there drinking beer, you can go meet him. And yeah, yeah, I think there, yeah, there's plenty of celebrity in that name. We we own it, we embrace it. Um, I don't think it's replaceable with anyone else. There's absolutely a lot of famous Vermonters, there's some great Olympians, there's some great politicians, whatever. But yeah, I think that that path has been cleared many times over for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I realize as I ask it, like the solution is in the question. But yeah, being able to work with a family for a family, literally have the name of on the can from a family that is so. Well known. I mean, I'll say again that the awareness of Von Trapp and the sound of music has been a part of my part of my consciousness ever since I was aware. It was one of the first movies I ever saw. It's just, um, yeah, I think, I think that is um, yeah, I think you've got the celebrity partnership covered. And I think it's interesting that you're taking that name and again collaborating with other breweries in support of it. So very cool.
Pro-decoction to a point
SPEAKER_01Um last but not least, decoction mashing. Um you mentioned this in relation to the light lager we're drinking. And I'm curious if you do it with any other beers. Um, just in a word yes or no uh to decoction mashing and in a single sentence, why or why not? Tell us.
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, proponent of decoction mashing, suitable for some beer styles, not necessary for all. Uh be deliberate with it, make it impactful, make a point to showcase it when you want to. Uh, but you don't need to waste time, money, resources, effort, energy to decoct a beer where it might not make a difference. Uh, there are other ways to achieve goals in brewing, whether it's um enzyme management or attenuation or body decoctions, fantastic. But again, there are different ways to get there. Um, there's always more work to be done, there's more studies to be had. Uh yeah, I'm on the fence in some regards, but a firm proponent in others. So yeah, sorry for long run-on sentence, but that's that's where we're at.
SPEAKER_01It's never a fair question, and it's always a good answer. And can you just tell us just a little bit more about kind of the beers that you do decoct with and versus the ones that you don't and how you make that decision?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we have the huge convenience of having a dedicated decoction vessel. So we're not pulling anything into buckets by hand and moving stuff and weird, weird pipes, which it just all goes over naturally. So uh yeah, our core boards, core beers we decoct, Vienna and Dunkel, uh, we tend to favor that in our kind of darker beers, adding just like a little more depth, uh, getting a little more residual sweetness from the enzymatic degradation. Uh, we feel it adds a little more body, a little more color. We don't decoct Hellis. We don't decoct our Pilsner. Uh, I've been advocating for decocting our Pilsner just because it's a Czech style, and that's like one of their, you know, things they preach more than anything else. Uh, but our Pilsner's great without it. Could it be better with it? Hard to say. Uh yeah, we decoct a lot of our darker beers, some of our collaboration beers, we decocted the Jack's Abbey Collab. Um, yeah, it just like depends if we have the interest in it. And I think there's still a huge educational component on it out in the market. Uh, it's a great buzzword, but do people actually know what it does? I think that's the next step. Um, because if you say this is triple decocted, that doesn't mean it's an awesome beer. You can mess it up in so many other ways, but if it is and you can taste it, awesome. Keep it up, you know. Uh again, yeah, it's just something, something to keep talking about, as I'm sure you and all your guests will.
SPEAKER_01I just I've asked before, like, if there's maybe any parallel between like uh being double dry hopped and now double decocted, just in terms of like kind of the buzz value around it. But whether you agree with it or not, um, if it is managing to reach kind of drinkers out there and kind of building kind of conversation around it, that alone has value. Just what does it mean to be double dry hopped? What does it mean to be double decocted? Does this taste better or not? Do I seek this out or not? If it is rallying beer audiences, it's at least worth talking about. So totally.
SPEAKER_00And one thing for your next guest, Jack Hendler, give him at least 30 minutes to talk about just decoction. He'll he'll need more than a sentence.
SPEAKER_01That's a deal. I actually have some studying to do before uh before this episode. I have his book. I haven't read it yet. So give me about two weeks to study up, Jack. And if not 30 minutes, I'll at least give you more than a word in the sentence that I promise. Um, before we
So long, farewell
SPEAKER_01go, to anyone who's thinking about visiting Von Trapp, um, to anyone who's 21 out there pondering their first beer, to anyone who's 101 considering their last beer, just what do we say to them, Jack? Um, why do they take the trip to Von Trapp? What do they drink once they get there? What else do you want people to know about Von Trapp Brewing before we go?
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, first off, thanks to everyone that's had our loggers over all these years and continue to support us. Some people think loggers are boring and one-dimensional. We think they're complex and beautiful. So uh I'm gonna raise a glass to everyone who's ever had a Hellas and to those who haven't come to Von Trapp. Drink a Hellas, come look in the mountains. It's a beautiful place. Um, yeah, it'll be your introductory beer. You'll go through a journey in beer trying everything else that's crazy high ABV, triple dry hop, and I guarantee you'll come back to Hellas. And um, yeah, everyone has their own trajectory, but it's the beer that us brewers we want to drink at the end of the day. So yeah, come here, try Hellas and see what else we got.
SPEAKER_01I love it. I mean, you're talking about the cycle of life. Like most people traditionally have some form of light lager to begin with as their first beer, and saying you might want to come full circle back to that at different stages of different ages of life. I mean, you and I both represent that. And I think what's happening now in the beer industry does as well. So I really appreciate that Von Trapp is providing the solution, whether you are 21, whether you are 101. And yes, like we hope people will continue taking the IPA Odyssey to Vermont. Um, and yes, we hope they'll continue finding their way to Von Trapp uh once they're ready to relax with the Hellas in hand.
Goodnight and Good Lager
SPEAKER_01So if you like what you're hearing, of course, I will say like, subscribe, follow No Life to Lager, help us hit the road and make a better kind of beer show. And above all, I want to say thank you to you, Jack. Thank you to Von Trapp. Thank you to Johannes, thank you to Sam, and thank you for sharing this story with us. So until we would get to where we are going, I will say good night and good lager. And once again, my glass is empty and I am ready for another. Jack, thank you so very much, my friend. Cheers.
SPEAKER_00Hey, cheers, Adam. That's been great. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01No life to lager.
SPEAKER_00No life to lagger.